[grc] Using a digital stream as STL to LPFM transmitter site

[Tom Voorhees]

! agree with Michael, Petri and Bill,
Two STL hops are the best way to go.
Ubic also makes a 902 - 928 Mhz STL that may penetrate some light
vegetation.
Attached is a photo of a mid path repeater site in PR.
Upon request I have a one line STL schematic drawing to this transmitter
site I can send using the Barix 500 balanced XLR codecs. .
Tom.

>  
> Agreed! 
> For some reason that still confounds me, the Barix implementation of MP3
> (to my ears) just doesn't sound very good. In fact, I think it's awful,
> especially when the source material is also bit-reduced. 
> Moderate audio processing just magnifies the mud. 
> Other codecs might have a better MP3 implementation, but by now there are
> other systems that run circles around it. 
> 
> Linear, FLAC, or 320kbs (or more) HE-AAC are the best ways to go for STL.
> 
> 
> mb 
> 
> Michael D. Brown
> Brown Broadcast Services, Inc.
> 
> -------------------------
> FROM: Stubblefield
> [mailto:stubblefield-bounces at lists.prometheusradio.org] ON BEHALF OF Greg
> Lyon
> SENT: Thursday, September 29, 2016 7:27 PM
> TO: Stubblefield
> SUBJECT: Re: [Stubblefield] Using a digital stream as STL to LPFM
> transmitter site
> 
> We at Asheville FM (WSFM-LP) finally gave up on our Barix Exstreamer 500
> (using the STL firmware) connection over public internet. Even though
> both the studio and transmitter were on dedicated connections (no QOS
> problems) to the same ISP (Charter cable), we had multiple dropouts and
> digital noise daily. We don't have line of sight. We were doing 320 kbps
> mp3 stream with 600 ms buffer (Barix-recommended settings for 320 mp3).
> The Barix STL firmware doesn't allow AAC encoding.
> 
> We finally bought the bullet and had a local nonprofit optical fiber ISP
> hook us up with an IP tunnel. Now we're sailing beautifully with PCM
> streaming (16/48). The sound difference is noticeable. Not a single
> glitch, that I've heard. One thing I don't like about the Barix is that
> there are no logs, as far as I can tell. Otherwise, I really like the
> Barix boxes. I can't imagine sticking with a Raspberry Pi solution for an
> STL--or even an icecast stream over public internet. STL dropouts are a
> serious buzzkill.
> 
> --Greg
> 
> On 9/29/2016 9:22 PM, Matt Lane wrote:
> You could always house some sort of automation (like ZaraRadio) and your
> EAS decoder at the transmitter site (for compliance), pushing content to
> the automation via the 'Net as needed in the interim. Use Dropbox or
> Google Drive to push content via the cloud to your system, set up a
> schedule on the automation and so forth, get a free TeamViewer account or
> set up VNC for remote control. 
> 
> I'm with Pete on this, using the public Internet as an STL is iffy. I
> get a bit antsy when using it to do local remote broadcasts, especially
> when we are in downtown Nashville where everyone has to Snapchat their
> cowboy boot pedal tavern experiences, causing 4G LTE to whimper (but I
> digress).
> 
> Matt Lane, WW4RFN 
> Technical Director 
> WRFN-LP/W279CH 
> Radio Free Nashville
> 
> On Thursday, September 29, 2016,
> <stubblefield-request at lists.prometheusradio.org> wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
> 
> 1. Re: Using a digital stream as STL to LPFM transmitter site
> (pete tridish)
> 2. Re: Using a digital stream as STL to LPFM transmitter site
> (WSBL LP)
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2016 20:30:05 -0400
> From: pete tridish <petetridish at riseup.net>
> To: Stubblefield <stubblefield at lists.prometheusradio.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stubblefield] Using a digital stream as STL to LPFM
> transmitter site
> Message-ID: <57EDB20D.8080607 at riseup.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"
> 
> ah, makes sense. I'm sure it will work for a while, good enough to get
> you license!
> 
>> Danny <mailto:danny at wspj.org>
>> September 29, 2016 at 8:21 PM
>> 
>> The Ubiquiti has always been our preferred option. But we’re building
>> out both a LPFM and associated translator in tandem, with the CP for
>> the latter expiring first, so we already have a very full plate. Plus,
>> the hills are public parks, which greatly complicates that option. Our
>> focus right now is saving both CPs and then making it all pretty later
>> when we have more time and people will have a clearer sense what
> we’re
>> up to.
>> 
>> *From:*Stubblefield
>> [mailto:stubblefield-bounces at lists.prometheusradio.org] *On Behalf Of
>> *Bill Putney
>> *Sent:* Thursday, September 29, 2016 7:35 PM
>> *To:* stubblefield at lists.prometheusradio.org
>> *Subject:* Re: [Stubblefield] Using a digital stream as STL to LPFM
>> transmitter site
>> 
>> If you can find a place up on the hill at someone's house or business
>> to host a couple of Ubiquiti 5 GHz radios that would make a nicer STL
>> transport than public Internet. Public Internet connections are prone
>> to drops and outright failure. Not really something you want your
>> listeners to have to put up with. If the Internet where you are is
>> really good, it will work fine but a lot of times it isn't an it just
>> makes everyone's life miserable.
>> 
>> As for using an Icecast server at the studio end, that sounds fine.
>> Use something like 256 Kbps AAC or another modern good sounding codec.
>> Full CD rate PCM would be best and with a Ubiquiti link you have the
>> bandwidth. I'd stay away from MP3 even at higher bit rates. People are
>> going to want to bring in their crummy MP3 music to play on the air. A
>> bad idea on several levels but if you have to skimp on the STL
>> bandwidth and use an aggressive codec you really need to start
>> worrying about the cascading codec's making a mess of the audio. It
>> won't turn up in everything that gets played but when it does it'll
>> like fingernails on a chalkboard.
>> 
>> The Raspberry Pi has plenty of horsepower for the job. The audio
>> interface on the Raspberry Pi isn't the greatest. It does have a USB
>> port. Ask your software person if they can use a Pro-sumer USB to
>> balanced audio interface with the Pi. If your transmitter has an AES
>> input, you can use a really inexpensive USB to S/PDIF interface that
>> will sound better than any analog interface. I ran our automation
>> through a $35 module I bought on eBay when we started. Bits in/bits
>> out. If it sync's up you can't go wrong. Bits to an analog waveform is
>> a much harder thing to do right and it costs money to get it right.
>> 
>> I don't think the Pi has S/PDIF out (heither the coaxial or
>> optical-TOSLINK). It does have HDMI so the software does know most of
>> the stuff it needs to know about S/PDIF. AES and S/PDIF are nearly
>> identical protocols and the electrical differences are close enough to
>> work if the connection is under a few feet.
>> 
>> Bill Putney - WB6RFW
>> Chief Engineer
>> KPTZ - Port Townsend, WA
>> PP-SEL/A&P-IA
>> "...you know me to be a very smart man. Don't you think if I were
>> wrong, I'd know it?" -Sheldon Cooper
>> 
>> On 9/29/16 4:09 PM, Danny wrote:
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> This is the Stubblefield mailing list.
>> To post, send an email to: Stubblefield at lists.prometheusradio.org
>> For list options or to unsubscribe, please visit:
>> 
>
http://lists.prometheusradio.org/listinfo.cgi/stubblefield-prometheusradio.org
> [1]
>> Bill Putney <mailto:info at kptz.org>
>> September 29, 2016 at 7:35 PM
>> 
>> If you can find a place up on the hill at someone's house or business
>> to host a couple of Ubiquiti 5 GHz radios that would make a nicer STL
>> transport than public Internet. Public Internet connections are prone
>> to drops and outright failure. Not really something you want your
>> listeners to have to put up with. If the Internet where you are is
>> really good, it will work fine but a lot of times it isn't an it just
>> makes everyone's life miserable.
>> 
>> As for using an Icecast server at the studio end, that sounds fine.
>> Use something like 256 Kbps AAC or another modern good sounding codec.
>> Full CD rate PCM would be best and with a Ubiquiti link you have the
>> bandwidth. I'd stay away from MP3 even at higher bit rates. People are
>> going to want to bring in their crummy MP3 music to play on the air. A
>> bad idea on several levels but if you have to skimp on the STL
>> bandwidth and use an aggressive codec you really need to start
>> worrying about the cascading codec's making a mess of the audio. It
>> won't turn up in everything that gets played but when it does it'll
>> like fingernails on a chalkboard.
>> 
>> The Raspberry Pi has plenty of horsepower for the job. The audio
>> interface on the Raspberry Pi isn't the greatest. It does have a USB
>> port. Ask your software person if they can use a Pro-sumer USB to
>> balanced audio interface with the Pi. If your transmitter has an AES
>> input, you can use a really inexpensive USB to S/PDIF interface that
>> will sound better than any analog interface. I ran our automation
>> through a $35 module I bought on eBay when we started. Bits in/bits
>> out. If it sync's up you can't go wrong. Bits to an analog waveform is
>> a much harder thing to do right and it costs money to get it right.
>> 
>> I don't think the Pi has S/PDIF out (heither the coaxial or
>> optical-TOSLINK). It does have HDMI so the software does know most of
>> the stuff it needs to know about S/PDIF. AES and S/PDIF are nearly
>> identical protocols and the electrical differences are close enough to
>> work if the connection is under a few feet.
>> 
>> Bill Putney - WB6RFW
>> Chief Engineer
>> KPTZ - Port Townsend, WA
>> 
>> PP-SEL/A&P-IA
>> 
>> "...you know me to be a very smart man. Don't you think if I were
>> wrong, I'd know it?" -Sheldon Cooper
>> 
>> On 9/29/16 4:09 PM, Danny wrote:
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> This is the Stubblefield mailing list.
>> To post, send an email to: Stubblefield at lists.prometheusradio.org
>> For list options or to unsubscribe, please visit:
>> 
>
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> [1]
>> Danny <mailto:danny at wspj.org>
>> September 29, 2016 at 7:09 PM
>> 
>> Our LPFM transmitter site is 6+ miles from our studio without a clean
>> line-of-sight because of hills. So, to save time and money, we’ve
> been
>> expecting to use a pair of Barix boxes to move a digital stream from
>> our studio to our transmitter. But a couple of our key people think
>> we can skip using one or both Barix boxes.
>> 
>> Specifically, the person who maintains the Icecast server that hosts
>> our webcast feels confident he can create a second private stream of
>> much higher quality that can take the place of the need for a Barix
>> box at the studio end and another person thinks we can use a
> “headless
>> internet radio player” on a Raspberry Pi instead of a Barix box at
> the
>> transmitter site. He’s looking at
>> https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=43108 [2] 
> especially
>> noting this setup has auto-run upon reboot, which is what we want.
>> This is a key person of ours with lots of experience using the
>> Raspberry Pi.
>> 
>> Are one or both of them missing something with these suggestions? Will
>> these be viable and reliable ways to avoid paying $1,200 for a pair of
>> Barix boxes?
>> 
>> Thanks!
>> 
>> Danny
>> 
>> WSPJ-LP Syracuse NY
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> This is the Stubblefield mailing list.
>> To post, send an email to: Stubblefield at lists.prometheusradio.org
>> For list options or to unsubscribe, please visit:
>> 
>
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> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2016 00:45:15 +0000 (UTC)
> From: WSBL LP <wsbllp at sbcglobal.net>
> To: Stubblefield <stubblefield at lists.prometheusradio.org>
> Subject: Re: [Stubblefield] Using a digital stream as STL to LPFM
> transmitter site
> Message-ID: <1674681925.3064049.1475196315352 at mail.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> We have been using Barix boxes for a good 4 years.
> Three problems we encountered makes our choice a bit questionable.All
> have to do with the bandwidth of DSL and AT&T. We could change to a
> "better" provider but our monthly cost would quadruple (Comcast).
> Problem #1 was that we could not transmit at MP3 quality, so we had to
> lower quality a bit, and it is somewhat noticeable.
> #2 Every now and then our DSL gets saturated for some unknown reason and
> we get off the air momentarily, this is a rare occurrence but it happens.
> #3 At least once a year our internet provider has its own problems and
> completely turns off for a few hours.
> On the other hand the Barix boxes perform beautifully and are
> ultra-reliable.
> When our link is dropped, the Barix at the transmitter immediately starts
> a playlist that we loaded into a memory stick, in it we have our ID every
> ten minutes and a message stating that we are experiencing technical
> difficulties, as well as the most popular music for our audience.
> We have a static IP address at the transmitter site. With a third box we
> do remote broadcasting basically moving our studio to any place we want,
> as long as there is a fairly good internet service at the site.
> Programming the barix boxes is not a simple task, fortunately we found a
> technician that had experience with them and he did all the
> configuration.
> Hopefully this input helps you make a good decision.
> Eliud Villanueva, DirectorWSBL-LP, South Bend, IN
> ps. We actually have a clear line of sight and are thinking of changing
> to some kind of microwave STL
> 
> From: Danny <danny at wspj.org>
> To: grc at maillist.peak.org; stubblefield at lists.prometheusradio.org
> Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2016 7:09 PM
> Subject: [Stubblefield] Using a digital stream as STL to LPFM
> transmitter site
> 
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> div.yiv9719607549WordSection1 {}-->Our LPFM transmitter site is 6+ miles
> from our studio without a clean line-of-sight because of hills. So, to
> save time and money, we’ve been expecting to use a pair of Barix boxes
> to move a digital stream from our studio to our transmitter. But a
> couple of our key people think we can skip using one or both Barix boxes.
> Specifically, the person who maintains the Icecast server that hosts our
> webcast feels confident he can create a second private stream of much
> higher quality that can take the place of the need for a Barix box at the
> studio end and another person thinks we can use a “headless internet
> radio player” on a Raspberry Pi instead of a Barix box at the
> transmitter site. He’s looking at
> https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=43108 [2] especially
> noting this setup has auto-run upon reboot, which is what we want. This
> is a key person of ours with lots of experience using the Raspberry Pi. 
> Are one or both of them missing something with these suggestions? Will
> these be viable and reliable ways to avoid paying $1,200 for a pair of
> Barix boxes? Thanks!DannyWSPJ-LP Syracuse NY
> _______________________________________________
> This is the Stubblefield mailing list.
> To post, send an email to: Stubblefield at lists.prometheusradio.org
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-- 
Greg Lyon
Vice President, Friends of Community Radio, Inc.
Asheville FM (WSFM-LP 103.3 FM)
http://ashevillefm.org [6] 

> 
 

Links:
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[2] https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=43108
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[6] http://ashevillefm.org

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