[grc] [ADV] Fwd: Pacifica controversy on WBAI shut down

[Frieda Werden]

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Justice Initiative <hmcgray at earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 7:03 AM
Subject: Pacifica controversy on WBAI shut down
To: <wings at wings.org>


Interview with Alex Steinberg of WBAI (New York)
 JUSTICE INITIATIVE


* Interview with Alex Steinberg *





* of WBAI (New York)  About the controversy surrounding the brief shutting
down of Pacifica's WBAI*



* Click here for the recorded interview
<http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?f=001GGJp5bzgssHbt7qa3WaOBBm0sz11hebXvNGMq9XvyG494gx29q3eFq9z6VzYUpb7nASXixS2nidELVh8XBaPW0CxVpOPKowC_41wOhhxfkVAF6KK3LKMb-FIkmSHRSdiLvhdj5-WqBNVbEPs8-6GNj-w2jO_G1b0ktLDaPhU0rXznDOTaDgNvA==&c=ycvQH2HXnBn1PXjdsk52IAs8v32cUqD_5lpZttq_TV5Nhz-20BpJvw==&ch=z7CLgIGCLfd5JcUsdOcL5psi2UAu_ajrmAGf8ygvy28keOIjBc43Pw==>
 *with Alex Steinberg on 2/17/20

*by Producers*

*Heather Gray And Ernest Dunkley of WRFG (FM)
<http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?f=001GGJp5bzgssHbt7qa3WaOBBm0sz11hebXvNGMq9XvyG494gx29q3eFoPKeOY76v5jAJllxZF-aau99Rft8LyN4jaODIiYa8DrRzNl397Q4-lHr-xk3GQJ3-pl409dyDTRYTyn17RIjKvtvKWTlca7kZT5IcQaWo3T&c=ycvQH2HXnBn1PXjdsk52IAs8v32cUqD_5lpZttq_TV5Nhz-20BpJvw==&ch=z7CLgIGCLfd5JcUsdOcL5psi2UAu_ajrmAGf8ygvy28keOIjBc43Pw==>
Atlanta*


* Below are some transcribed segments of the interview with Alex Steinberg *


* Heather Gray <hmcgray at earthlink.net> February 20, 2020 Justice Initiative
<http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?f=001GGJp5bzgssHbt7qa3WaOBBm0sz11hebXvNGMq9XvyG494gx29q3eFmnKBvN__Sgnd5tZg8pB1Zy9qpRntPdmNHpixTkBX7incIQrEpvjPPOCURpXEGsWQbrJvYgCu1m63LRLNgkmOgsKq8jgpuGfgahqHJotC7jos3R4EYm94GY=&c=ycvQH2HXnBn1PXjdsk52IAs8v32cUqD_5lpZttq_TV5Nhz-20BpJvw==&ch=z7CLgIGCLfd5JcUsdOcL5psi2UAu_ajrmAGf8ygvy28keOIjBc43Pw==>
(Link to article
<http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?f=001GGJp5bzgssHbt7qa3WaOBBm0sz11hebXvNGMq9XvyG494gx29q3eFmnKBvN__Sgnd5tZg8pB1Zy9qpRntPdmNHpixTkBX7incIQrEpvjPPOCURpXEGsWQbrJvYgCu1m63LRLNgkmOgsKq8jgpuGfgahqHJotC7jos3R4EYm94GY=&c=ycvQH2HXnBn1PXjdsk52IAs8v32cUqD_5lpZttq_TV5Nhz-20BpJvw==&ch=z7CLgIGCLfd5JcUsdOcL5psi2UAu_ajrmAGf8ygvy28keOIjBc43Pw==>)
Preface*
Below is a partial transcription of the February 17, 2020 interview with
Alex Steinberg  about the issues surrounding the Pacifica National Board
and the surprising October 2019 "shutting" down of the Pacifica WBAI
station in New York by a faction on the Pacifica National Board, along with
the, now fired, Pacifica Executive Director from the (previous)
headquarters in Berkeley, California. It also includes information of the
now recovered WBAI and the contemporary legal issues surrounding it all.

Also, given the new media technologies and the overall corporate based
economic systems, in the interview we explore changes in the media
landscape and the need to make sure there are democratically based
community radio entities that offer a voice for and by the vast array of
people of all races, classes, cultures and creeds that the corporate based
media invariably attempt to leave out the mix.

Steinberg serves on the WBAI radio board in New York and is also the chair
Pro tem of the Pacifica National Board.

Regarding the contemporary contentious Pacifica Radio issues, as they say
in southern Africa, "A luta continua" (the struggle continues).



****Partial Transcription of Interviewwith Alex Steinberg on February 17,
2020*

*Heather Gray (WRFG)*
My name is Heather Gray and the program is Just Peace. And I'm here with
co-producer Ernest Dunkley. And I'm pleased to say we're talking with Alex
Steinberg of WBAI in New York who is also the chair Pro tem of the National
Pacifica Board of Directors. So, I'm looking forward to having this
discussion with you about Pacifica, and about WBAI. There's so much Alex,
it's hard to know where to start. So, you're a busy person, Alex, what can
I say?
erg
*Alex Steinberg (WBAI)*
Yes, I am. And it's been kind of like non-stop since October (2019),
actually. There were a lot of events that happened before we were shut down
in October. I knew this was going to happen and we were preparing for it.

Some history: WBAI was gifted to the Pacifica Foundation by Louis
Schweitzer in 1960. It had been previously a commercial station in New
York, and Mr. Schweitzer had got pretty fed up with the stuff on commercial
radio and was looking for something different, something that could reach
an audience with intelligent programming and something not mainstream that
they couldn't hear elsewhere. And he discovered the Pacifica Foundation....
and I don't remember how many stations Pacifica had at that time, but it
certainly had KPFA, the founding station in Berkeley, and I think the Los
Angeles (KPFK) station was also there by then. The Washington station
(WPFW), the Houston station (KPFT) came a bit later. We are now five
stations, including WBAI.

Pacifica was founded by a radical pacifist named Lew Hill who was
incarcerated during World War II for his stand as a conscientious objector.
And we have been providing an alternative viewpoint alternative culture
ever since. And we've also been under threat of being corporatized, almost
from the beginning. Lou Hill had to fight those battles back in the 1940s
and 1950s. And guess what? We're still fighting!....

*Gray*
Okay, so we do want to talk about what happened. WBAI was shut down in
October of 2019. And you had some assumption that this was probably going
to happen, but why did you have that assumption? Some various sectors or
individuals within the Pacific board decided to do this right. But what
made you think that was going to happen, Alex?

*Steinberg*
Well, since I was on the board of directors of Pacifica I had a kind of an
insider's view as to what was happening ....and I knew very shortly after
we hired a new Interim Executive Director, John Vernile, that a certain
kind of disinformation campaign began against WBAI.

They turned WBAI into a scapegoat attempting to blame all of Pacifica's
financial problems on WBAI. And once that started, and I could see that our
executive director was enlisting all sorts of people into this
disinformation campaign, I was anticipating some move shut down or
otherwise muzzle WBAI.

And the reason for that is very simple. Pacifica has been in serious
financial crisis for quite a while. And this is part of a general problem
that all broadcast radio is currently facing. We have to figure out how
we're going to reach new audiences.

As you know, the habits of listeners have changed because the technology
and communications have changed, right? Young people, for instance, don't
listen very much to terrestrial radio, they do listen to podcasts, they
listen over the internet, and so on. And not that much terrestrial radio
and even car radios. More and more, AM and FM stations are competing with
satellite, Sirius XM, all that kind of stuff. So, it is a different playing
field.

And not to minimize that there have been management problems at Pacifica.
There's no question of that as well. But we're not the only ones with
problems. iHeart Radio, the largest radio conglomerate in the country -
they own something like 800 commercial radio stations. They just last month
announced a layoff of 1000 people nationwide. And guess who were the
primary victims of those layoffs? (It was) not the large stations in the
major cities, but the small stations and small communities and rural
communities.

It's the community radio stations that are being hit the most. And
especially with new technology and looser regulations by the Federal
Communications Commission that basically allows these radio conglomerates
to do pretty much what they want. They're able to essentially automate
radio. You may think it's a local broadcast, but it's actually a broadcast
that's being beamed in from thousands of miles away....They use things ...
to give you the illusion that this is some kind of local programming, which
it's not. Pacifica stations have maintained local programming, even as we
also try to create some national programming.

We were the ones for instance that launched 'Democracy Now'.

And anyway, the battle has been, essentially, a philosophical issue at the
heart of this. The battle has been between those who think (*that*) a
corporate type model, similar to what NPR stations have adopted, complete
with accepting underwriting from major corporations and streamlining the
programming so that local programming and these erratic radical, edgy
voices are eliminated. That's the model of some people (*are advocating*) -
primarily *(by)  *some of the directors and their friends in the Bay Area
in California.

The other model is (one) which maintains the radical traditions of Lew
Hill, the founder of Pacifica, and Lou Schweitzer, the person who donated
WBAI to Pacifica. If you know some of the history of WBAI, you know that we
were very, very critical and one of the main voices against the Vietnam
War. And we were the inventors through, Bob Fast, of Freeform Radio.
There's a documentary about Bob (called)  Radio Unnameable
<http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?f=001GGJp5bzgssHbt7qa3WaOBBm0sz11hebXvNGMq9XvyG494gx29q3eFq9z6VzYUpb7MUfYTimX7yiHs2aAbB_Y04l_WTKMbkg4g0m0VWU_IuVu0XFxqxATHikksA7D37iu8KJdFsU8o9LKYAHJSXKLL8PTvr3wcvFGjBWD-C5hhkphdi4bwd54Sk8vZmM7ayhOF3J3qNASmLo=&c=ycvQH2HXnBn1PXjdsk52IAs8v32cUqD_5lpZttq_TV5Nhz-20BpJvw==&ch=z7CLgIGCLfd5JcUsdOcL5psi2UAu_ajrmAGf8ygvy28keOIjBc43Pw==>
- if you ever get a chance to see it. It's great. Thousands of people
turned up at the Anti-Vietnam War demonstration. This happened one time at
Grand Central Station for a protest against the war. And another time,
people were told to go to JFK Airport, and you can - imagine (that)
hundreds of people showed up at JFK Airport....

*Gray*
You know, one of the things as far as WBAI is concerned, (is that) I know
there have been changes over the years of course, but this is a challenge
that you all face in New York because you have one of the most valued
antennas.... Is that correct?

*Steinberg*
Well, okay, here's the hub of the problem. Okay, so I was explaining how
there have been financial problems at Pacifica. And then there was this
disinformation campaign that began blaming all the financial problems on
WBAI.

And the bottom line was that these people had their radar set on the signal
because the WBAI signal is, by far, the most valuable of any of the signals
in the Pacifica network. For one thing, it's in the commercial band, it's
right in the middle of the dial - 99.5.

I've heard lots of estimates. At one time it was much more but even in
today's depressed market, it would probably go anywhere between $20 and $50
million. So, a lot of people at other stations that were feeling a
financial pinch, were looking at that and saying this could solve our
problems, we could have a pot of money.

Now, they didn't come out openly and say that, or at least not very
recently, although in previous years and even as early as 2018, they work
saying exactly that. There was a document being circulated around the
network called Plan B, which was written by one of the architects of a ...
proposal, it's now being circulated in Pacifica. But that  document called
for the dismantling of the Pacifica network and individual stations and, to
give it a financial push, it calls for the sale or swap of one of the
signals and the only signal that's ever been mentioned is WBAI, although
sometimes they've also considered the Washington, DC station as one of
their victims. So, perhaps you want to get to the traumatic event?

*Gray*
Yeah. So along that line, let's move forward and talk about what happened
in October last year. And you were expecting this, but probably not in the
way it occurred, I'm assuming. But anyway, what happened in October to WBAI?

*Steinberg*
What I was expecting some kind of an attempt to either shut down WBAI or
turn it into what we call a repeater station - a repeater station is a
station that's fully automated. There's no real staff. It's just piped in -
(is) programming from elsewhere. But I wasn't expecting that to happen
without the concurrence of the Pacific National Board.

But what happened? What happened was our Executive Director John Vernile
decided to go ahead, not only without the approval of the board but without
even notifying the board. We didn't know about it.

But on the morning of October 7, which was a Monday, I got a call in the
early morning from our general manager, Berthold Reimers, who was saying
that he just got an email that he was fired; and he was hearing that from
other staff members - they got the same email that the whole staff was
fired. And then he heard that there's something going on at our studio -
that people came in there and threw everybody out.

Anyway, so we all went down to the studio. By the time I got there, I tried
to knock on the door to get in. I was refused entry even though I am a
director of Pacifica and I am entitled to enter anywhere of the Pacifica
premises. And the only people I saw were these two burly security guards
and I saw some of our staff people. They told me that they had been
unceremoniously thrown out of the studio. And our landlord was told you
better get yourself a new tenant.

And what they did was they dismantled all the microphones and other
equipment and they locked them up somewhere. And, just symbolically, we had
in our hallway, these historic photographs....photographs of historic
samples of our Folio on the wall, which was a printed program, that we used
to distribute, that goes back like 40 or 50 years. Issues that were under
glass in our hallway. One of the directors who came to shut us down, took
all those photographs down. It was kind of like a symbolic statement
saying, "Wow, you're no more and we don't care about your history. Screw
you." So that's kind of what happened and the people, the staff people over
there, were kind of in a state of shock.

*Gray*
And they were in the middle of a fund drive when that happened as well.

*Steinberg*
Yes...we had just finished the first week of our fund drive, which had been
going very successfully, and they shut us down. Well, it's kind of amazing.
And they use the excuse that we were financially indigent and could not pay
our bills. Well, of course, we couldn't certainly pay our bills after they
shut us down because we had no way to raise money at all.

They not only shut down our studio, they got into the tower where we
broadcast from at... Times Square. And they locked us out...and that's when
they started piping in this... I don't know how to describe it...It .was
something called  "Pacifica across America" and it was ... programming from
California that I don't know who listened to it. I actually tried to listen
to it for a few minutes. And...it was beyond my level of toleration.

Anyway...what we did, was thanks to our attorney Arthur Schwartz, who was,
at that time, just a local attorney who has a program on WBAI about local
politics. He's also involved in local politics in New York. And he heard
about what happened and he said we've got to do something about this. And,
somehow he went before a judge - after hours - after 5pm when the courts
had shut down.

*Gray*
You mean the day this happened?

*Steinberg*
That day. At that very day, we dragged the judge out of bed. They met in
the lobby of the judge's home to argue this case and he got a temporary
restraining order.

(The restraining order) was of the people who came (to New York) who were John
Vernile - Executive Director, two directors, both from Houston, Bill
Crozier and Adrian LaViolette, a staff engineer from Washington and two
security guards....They also brought a locksmith to change all the locks,
so we couldn't get in. Anyway, so (we got this order) to reinstate the
status quo....

But first of all, they ignored the (retraining order) and a day or two
later, I know the chronology gets kind of confusing after a while, but it
was a couple of days later, I think, they appeal the temporary restraining
order and they got the judge .... to vacate most of the restraining order
but Pacifica was still ordered to continue to pay (WBAI) staff. Okay, but
as far as the shutdown of the station, he (the judge) allowed that to
continue. However, in the meantime, we were able to get back into the
studio because since we didn't actually have a lease ....our landlord, who
was sympathetic to us, got a locksmith to change all the locks again, and
we came back. Of course, we still couldn't broadcast but at least we had a
studio and at least we were able to watch the equipment so that it couldn't
be taken out because it was a foregone conclusion that the equipment that
they locked up would have been removed the next day or so. And that would
have been that and it would have really been impossible to get back on the
air....

Anyway, so from there, they got the temporary restraining orders...We went
back to court. And there was a whole thing that went on. They (*the
Pacifica disrupters*) tried to take us out of the New York State Supreme
Court, because they thought that was too favorable to us. So they tried to
get the federal court to hear the case. Okay, to justify going to Federal
Court, they claimed this was an FCC issue, which it wasn't. We weren't
contesting the ownership of the license or anything like that. We were
simply contesting the legality of shutting down WBAI.

....A lot of things were going on at that time. There were meetings
organized. There was a press conference in front of City Hall, that I
managed to speak at (and) many other people spoke at  - the borough
president of Brooklyn came down and gave us his support....Anyway, when we
finally got the hearing in federal court, we argued that the case doesn't
belong in federal court. And the judge agreed with us and he (sent) the
case back to New York State court, and so we went back to New York State
court. And finally there were several hearings. But finally, on November 5,
in front of Judge Melissa Crane, she gave us everything we wanted. She
ordered (that Pacifica was to) open WBAI.

And I should add that while this was all going on, they were all sorts of
meetings on the Pacifica National Board and the people who were behind this
takeover (*of WBAI and*) realizing that they had really no legal authority
to do this. (*They were*) desperate to get some kind of retroactive
ratification for their actions. So what they did was they (*the PNB Board)*
held a meeting on October 12, in which they got (*a*) ratification, but
they only did that because they disenfranchised *(some concerned board
members*) from participating in the vote.
\
*Gray*
Oh, my goodness. Right. So we're talking here about the National Pacifica
Board. Is that correct?

*Steinberg*
That's what you're talking about  - (the) Pacifica board. Yeah, none of the
four WBAI directors were allowed to vote.

*(A correction and some additional information from Steinberg about the
October 12 vote not mentioned in the interview:*

*When the 5 Directors were disenfranchised at the PNB meeting of October
12, that did not include ALL 4 WBAI Directors. One of them was able to vote
- namely Ralph Poynter. James Sagurton and I were not allowed to vote or
participate in the discussion  supposedly because we had a "conflict of
interests" because we were litigants in the petition against Executive
Director Vernile - even though we had removed ourselves from the case
precisely in order to avoid this made up problem.  Also Shawn Rhodes from
WBAI was not allowed to vote because he was staff and therefore considered
to have a conflict of interest.  So 3 out of 4 WBAI Directors were
prevented from voting or participating.  On top of that, 2 other Directors,
DeWayne Lark and Grace Aaron, were also prevented from voting or saying
anything by the acting Chair, Sabrina Jacobs. Pacifica's legal counsel at
the time, Ford Greene, gave his imprimatur to this act of blatant
disenfranchisement. )*

*Gray*
Since the tragic incident that took place in WBAI in October this past
year, the struggle has been ongoing. But the opposing faction on the board
didn't allow certain board members to vote. I mean, how could that be legal?

*Steinberg*
Well, it wasn't legal. The Judge said in her ruling, specifically that the
board at that time, disenfranchised (*some board members*) - she actually
used that word that we were 'disenfranchised'. And that's absolutely
correct. Anyway, we had an emergency meeting the next day, October 13, in
which the directors (*did)* participate in the vote. And by that time, we
had a majority on the board that were opposing the shut down of WBAI. And
we authorized the reopening of WBAI. We suspended Mr. Vernile as...executive
director, we removed the two officers of the board, who were supporters of
this coup. This action by a majority of the board was again ignored by Mr.
Vernile and his supporters. They were acting as if they were still in
charge of everything, really. And they continue. Yeah, they continue to do
so. Until we got the court order November 5. And even after we got the
court order, they still continue (which is) astonishing....They still
continued to engage a legal firm in the name of Pacifica, although we had
the board majority on our side by that point, so we were Pacifica, (and)
not them. But they were engaging this law firm to argue against us.

*Gray*
So they completely sidestep the democratic process as far as the board of
directors was concerned and Pacifica bylaws are concerned ,all of that.
Right? I mean, it's just remarkable. Really. They were hijacking the stage.

*Steinberg*
They were hijacking, you know, absolutely. In every conceivable way.... I
guess they figured they can just get away with it. Finally, by the end of
November, we were able to regain control of the network...

(*Even with)* the court order on November 5, the Pacifica staff continue to
take orders from Mr. Vernile.... even though we suspended him. It took
another two weeks or so before it sunk in that the court orders meant
exactly what it said.

And we went on to fire Mr. Vernile for his actions. We also dismissed the
legal counsel for Pacifica who was then engaged in what we felt was some
very unethical behavior. I won't go into that any further....and we ordered
a restoration of WBAI - it took us at least a good month before all our
services were restored. And I'm talking about not only the studio and the
tower, but our website, bank accounts, the call center that we use to
answer phone calls during fundraise - all these things had to be addressed
and it was quite exhausting for WBAI management and staff that we finally
got back on the air November 7. Around midnight.  I was in the new master
studio when we did that. It was a very, very inspiring moment. Anyway,
so...that's what happened, why it happened. The historical background and
the political meaning of it all is whole other story that you may want to
get into....

....Well, I believe the larger picture is the increased corporatization and
monopolization of communications and media technology and of course, that's
very obvious with the rise of these mega corporation (and) internet
corporations like Google and Facebook, Twitter.... But it also affects, of
course, the more traditional media, like radio and television. You see
consolidation all over the place, T-mobile and Sprint are merging. There's
all this stuff going on. Anyway,...there has been a movement to corporatize
all the different community stations and many .... were just shut down.
This was in many regional community stations throughout the country, just
as there are less and less local newspapers.....

...so within Pacifica this has taken the form over the years of various
proposals to centralize operations. And right now, it's taking the form of
an attempt to remove our democratic governance process.

The first blow for that was the attempted shutdown of WBAI, but we are
fighting on another front currently, and that's an attempt to rewrite our
(Pacifica) bylaws. This is a court action going on right now that's forcing
us to hold a referendum and the referendum (to) decide whether we maintain
our current democratic governance process? Or will we be turned into a self
selecting board of directors, like characterizes most NPR stations, in
which, you know, there's really no local input as far as programming or
major decisions on the local level. Currently, our Pacifica stations have
both input on a local level for local station boards, and democratically
elected people serving on the national board. And we have several people
from each station on the national board so that we get a diverse set of
opinions....

 ...We're finding that the battle (of new bylaws) is like chapter two, sort
of the sequel of the shutdown of WBAI....but the importance of the fact is
that we were able to restore WBAI. And the only reason we did it was
because we had so much support, not only in New York but throughout the
country...many listeners and staff throughout the country rallied to
support us.

I was getting interviewed all over the place.  Just because I happen to be
the Pro tem chair of the board that was defending WBAI, at the time, I even
had somebody call me from Manitoba, Canada that interviewed me on (a) local
community station there, which is kind of neat.

So anyway, we were happy, of course, to be back on the air but the struggle
continues.
We're under no illusion that the struggle is over. And this battle between
the forces that want to corporatize and centralize our operations and (to)
finance themselves at the expense of one of our stations, namely WBAI, and
those who want to maintain a radical voice.

I think it's sort of a mirror image of the kind of battle that's taking
place politically throughout this country, between the forces who want to
present an alternative not only to Trump but to all the enablers of social
inequality and imperialism that populate both of our major political
parties and those who are more or less okay with the status quo...You know,
it would be strange if there was no reflection of the larger political
situation within Pacifica and within these radio networks.

*Gray*
(*Please*) be a little bit more specific about ....what you mean by that?

*Steinberg*
I think the forces that want to centralize Pacifica are ...(t*hose that*)
don't really want a truly radical alternative voice on the radio, they want
something that they could call ... progressive...People feel too
uncomfortable (*with a radical alternative voice*).

That's kind of the issue we're facing... and I have nothing against
prosperous middle class people who wish to be progressive. That's fine. But
we also need a voice for those who are not, perhaps, middle class (*and/or*)
are at the bottom of the economic ladder, who are discriminated against
racially and many other ways. And, those voices need to be heard and we
have many, many such voices on WBAI and the other Pacifica stations.

There's always (*an issue*) in American politics whenever somebody speaks
out to radically, and God forbid they should speak out against capitalism.
They know for instance, in the Bernie Sanders candidacy or the Tulsi
Gabbard candidacy in the current primaries going on in Democratic Party, we
see this frenzy panic by the Democratic Party establishment. To put
anybody...who talks about socialism...you can't have that. Well, it's  that
kind of reaction we're seeing within Pacifica against the radical spirit of
Lew Hill and others who founded this network. They don't like the fact that
we stand up, not only against the emerging authoritarianism and
proto-fascism of the Trump administration, but all....(*those in*) the
Democratic Party, who have sold out the working class.

And just to give an example, we had a program on KPFA (that's our sister
station in Berkeley) that was devoted to the working class called 'Work
Week' that was recently terminated. And the reason was the person who (
*produced*) that program was a vigorous critic of the management of that
station and that some of the management and staff of that station has been
at the hub of this movement to muzzle Pacifica and turn into a kind of an
NPR type of operation.

I can (speak) a lot more freely on your station than I can on any Pacifica
station at the moment because we are, believe it or not, under court order,
to allow equal time for the views of those who will corporatize us as well
as the views of those really at the core of Pacifica. Very happy to be on
your (station).

*Gray*
Thank you, Alex, we're happy to have you on the air. I always say, as far
as socialism or capitalism is concerned, that if there was ever a war that
was successful in the world, it has to be the Cold War, because it's
stymied so much of this discussion, not just here in the United States, but
in so many other areas of the world.

*Steinberg*
Yeah, but the fascinating thing is that ... now we have this unbelievable
situation where 40% of people that are polled have a favorable view of
socialism in America. And that's astounding. We haven't seen anything like
that at least since... 1912, when the Socialist Party ran Eugene v. Debs,
and he got over 900,000 votes.

*Gray*
Yeah. Well, I need to say that my one of my friends, one of the people that
we've interviewed on Just Peace in the past, is Richard Wolff, the Marxist
economist. And he said that in New York when they had the Occupy
Movement... that it was a huge awakening for so many people all over the
country because they realized the 1% versus the 99%, (and) that there were
huge, inappropriate inequities in the United States. And he said that now
people are just flocking to his lectures, which is a good thing, all over
the country, actually.

Alex, our time has just gone so quickly. We only have just a couple of
minutes left here. But  we're going to get you back on the air.

I appreciate also your comment at the very beginning of the show. You were
saying (*that)* because of the changes as far as media is concerned ...in
technology and so forth, that we really need to explore ways to be diverse
in terms of information and what is possible to offer the variety of
communities and cultures in the United States.  I think we should have that
discussion. So (please) that put that on the agenda, Alex.

*Steinberg*
And by the way, Heather, I'd like to add, although you didn't say it, that
you are also a member of the Pacifica National Board as a representative of
the affiliates. Although because of a court order, we're not allowed to
seat you yet.

*Gray*
Well, for future reference - (*but thank you for mentioning that*). All
right, Alex Steinberg, I want to thank you so much for sharing all this
with us. It is just so appreciated. So, we look forward to having another
discussion with you as well.

*Steinberg*
Absolutely.

 ###
Gray & Associates, PO Box 8129, Atlanta, GA 31106
SafeUnsubscribe™ wings at wings.org
<https://visitor.constantcontact.com/do?p=un&m=001zdwHf6BgJ7iFmzNJN-OUtA%3D%3D&ch=646d1870-7bc2-11e3-b8c5-d4ae527548e1&ca=74b4ed4d-f80a-4fc3-9df6-39bc640ba255>
hmcgray at earthlink.net
<http://ui.constantcontact.com/sa/fwtf.jsp?llr=goyxpfjab&m=1109359583686&ea=wings%40wings.org&a=1133951501885>
 | Update Profile
<https://visitor.constantcontact.com/do?p=oo&m=001zdwHf6BgJ7iFmzNJN-OUtA%3D%3D&ch=646d1870-7bc2-11e3-b8c5-d4ae527548e1&ca=74b4ed4d-f80a-4fc3-9df6-39bc640ba255>
 | About our service provider
<http://www.constantcontact.com/legal/service-provider?cc=about-service-provider>
Sent by hmcgray at earthlink.net in collaboration with
[image: Constant Contact]
<http://www.constantcontact.com/index.jsp?cc=TEM_Basic_209&rmc=VF19_V8>
Try email marketing for free today!
<http://www.constantcontact.com/index.jsp?cc=TEM_Basic_209&rmc=VF19_V8>


-- 
Frieda Werden, Series Producer
WINGS: Women's International News Gathering Service www.wings.org